insight about the gunmaking activity in Belgium from its very beginning to the middle of The "D.D. Or any info? Is there a stamp of LLH on the tubes forward of the flats? There's no indication of gauge. Still, this company firmly has its roots in the good old U.S.A. John Moses Browning is a legend of firearms history. Arnold Mathias These include the #1 A buddy at work inherited a very nice customized Mauser from his dad. I also looked at other European proof marks but didn't find the one you mention: compare http://www.cornellpubs.com/Catalog/proof-marks-intl.pdf. Sorry! Bodson TH. Prices: side-by-side, from 53,000 + VAT; over-and-under, from 65,000 + VAT. St. Etienne, in France, established its proof house in the reign of Francis I., at the beginning of the sixteenth century. Fakes and fraudulentmakers' marksare not a recent invention--note what William Greener said in 1835 (seemy earlier post of April 20, 2014). Marks, Arsenal & Inspector Marks, Manufacturers Guns and rifles built in Germany and the German principalities before the 1890s typically did not carry proof marks, but the 1891 proof law "grandfathered" these arms by mandating that they be submitted to the proof house and marked with a crown-over-V, the V standing for vorrat or "on hand". Christophe & Montigny firearms. Measure your Cogswell and it should be about that.The barrels are 32" and the gun weighs approx 73/4 lbs. Colot Unmarked barrel with Belgian proof mark, action currently . Nowadays these firearms are mostly used for hunting or kept at home for self-defence. Until 1894, stamped in .02mm graduations, then in 0.1mm steps, Degree of choke, in this case 0.7mm constriction. The Modern Shotgun. Black powder proof for rifles and shotguns. Thanks Hause. These firearms are cottage industry type weapons without a specific brand name. Any idea what it all means? Dallas, Donald. Bonzon & Arents & Cie I have not been able to locate an authoritative resource Sounds like a 19th C. Belgian pinfire shotgun (grin). Example of inspectors mark, any letter can be used with a crown. In the Proof Marks; my piece has a Star P, which in the article you do not identify. Thanks! Outdoor Hub, LLC (d/b/a Carbon Media Group), 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. Any maker's name on the rib between the barrels?Best,Gerry, 1902 a greener twobarrel it has hh on botten of barrel what do i have. Antique Shotguns (Pre-1899): Belgian Shotguns, Side by Side Shotguns Our inventory of antique shotguns is made up of shotguns manufactured before 1899, including English, French, and Belgian shotguns. Cap Joseph x\}WT_0qk E%Mp8@S36QG7=TFx,P?wU]4v>3}wc)0~_+. Reply rdlowe Pilgrim Joined Dec 11, 2015 Messages 236 Reaction score 190 Location Dallas TX Dec 21, 2018 #3 curator said: production. Hi, your shotgun was made after 1924 due to the Perron-Liege proof marks. I recently decided to clean it up. If 'JF' it could be Janssen Fils or Frres. Choke constriction, together with barrel dimension this can give a brief view of the choke. to share our findings by this means of communication. Very long barrel. Classic Arms Importers and manufacturers of blackpowder guns and kits, located in Palmer, Massachusetts. The wood does not look ancient so I am guessing in the 1970s or so. The second is the crossed branches, with the letters A.E. (Six volumes by alphabetical order), Belgian Liege gunmakers (A to C) - Volume 1. In England, the second charter of the Gunmakers' Company granted in 1672 marked the beginning of the official proving of arms, but it did not apply to weapons made elsewhere in the Kingdom, provided they were not offered for sale in the London market. It is a hammer back breakaway 12 gauge side by side. Savage continued to build guns under the A.H. Fox name into the 1940s. below are samples of Proof Marks of different countries. Chartier GWO, good condition. carefully bound by threads. Project Upland. Hand Guns 3 Rifles-Shotguns 0 . Since the U.S. has no proofing houses (as in England, France, Germany and . Further changes were initiated, when smokeless powder necessitated more stringent conditions of proof. Applied to all gun not made in Belgium but proofed in Belgium. In some cases this cipher is also preceded by the figures 16, and followed by a capital B., also surmounted by a crown. Forum, http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/artisans identifies d/a delcour dupont gb.htm, http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html, http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_Trade_Marks.html. have a great day! I think the barrels of that gun are solid steel, and the marking would seem to bear that out, but the gun should be examined by a knowledgeable gunsmith before firing with modern ammunition. Last edited on 20 February 2023, at 21:10, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_firearm_brands&oldid=1140599647, Air defense equipment, artillery, munitions, explosives, ED devices, industrial machinery, Ammunition, Suppressors, Outdoor products, Clothing, Civilian, law enforcement, military, security, Suppressors, rails/handguards, accessories, ammunition, clothing. Saillevillean E. reversed set in a square stamp (as shown below). Bernard Henri Eugne Designates rifled barrel. Each new gun is presented in a best oak and leather case complete with canvas outer and a full complement of accessories. Christophe Louis Thomas Jefferson. First Obligatory Proof Load for "Double-Barreled Breech-Loading Sporting Guns", Have a us arms Belgium, looking for info, reciever and barrel are stamped with 1563 has the circle elf star, has the Le peron, barrel ha a 33 stamp and an 18.0 stamp also has something that looks like JIT stamped any comments appreciated , trying to figure out when it was made. Baker, David J. that we have found on this subject. Mechanicsburg, PA: Stackpole Books, 2008. << /Length 5 0 R /Filter /FlateDecode >> 1899-2011 Modern Guns. In 1888 it was decided by a joint meeting of the Gunmakers Company and the Birmingham Guardians that a new supplementary proof for smokeless powder should be instituted in 1893, 1896, and 1904; the rules were further adjusted to allow for new powders. American gun manufacturers moved away from Damascus barrels and on to tubes made from fluid steel. Made in Colton N. Y. probably around the 1860s. My grandfather was a hunter long back in time just after WW2 and I have his shotgun in memory of him. That last photo will give you an idea of the relative thickness of the stock at the wrist - typical Brit (Belgian) 4 1/8th inch in circumference! Counet - Genot By 1931, Fabrique Nationale d'Armes de Guerre in Herstal, Belgium (FN) launched an even smaller .25 ACP pistol developed by the company's chief designer, Dieudonn Saive. Hello,I have a flintlock rifle that is stamped "spesco corporation made in Belgium" on the top of the smoothbore barrel. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. Carl Russell & Co Gunmakers Ltd, Stable Yard, Hatfield Park, Hatfield, Hertfordshire AL9 5NQ. Bookmark On barrels of breechloading shotguns after final black powder proof. The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time. I'm still working on a date and it seems like narrowing it down by what years it could'nt be from might be a better strategy. I will have to upload some pictures later when I get to my computer. A forum community dedicated to Shotgun owners and enthusiasts including the Remington, Beretta, and Mossberg shotguns brands. Can be without star and ring. Can you add any details? The standard proving of weapons rose out of the need for protection on the part of the public against unreliable weapons, and it was also a means of protecting the armourer guild and good craftsmen against outside competition with cheap imported arms. By Alain Daubresse. cardboard cover and the paper used for the printing was of the high glossy type and As the old saying has it, "The buyer needs a thousand eyes; the seller, only one." If you can, send me a photo: ghcox3@gmail.com.Best,Gerry, Gerry;I just sent you a photo of what I believe are the proof marks of a Belgium made double barrel 10 gauge shotgun. It's very old but I'd like to know more about it. "Cueruy" could be the maker. These are original antique muzzleloaders that are made by individual gunsmiths or small manufacturing concerns, usually prior to the era of mass production, but sometimes well into the mid-19th century. (most sales were in the 1930s). On top between the barrels "CANONS ACIER GARANTI". acknowledge the testing - called "Proof Marks". The gun belonged to HH Nawab Ahsanullah. You can tell an unaltered pin-fire by the vertical slot in the breech extending to the top of the barrel (and, of course, the absence of a firing pin). Smokeless powder proof of military rifles until 1903, thereafter indicates nitro proof for all types of arms. Spesco was based in Atlanta, GA, and imported a variety of reproduction and modern guns in the 1960's and 70's.It would be a good idea to check that the rifle is unloaded. Drue, yes, the absence of rifling means that this pin-fire was used for shot.Pin-fires represent an important stage in the development of firearms. The second and third indicateit was proofed at Lige. Berleur Guillaume I will try to upload a pic if it'll let me. I live in Tennessee and would love help on identifying this gun down to the year and place made. . it says made in belgium on the side of the barrel yes but on the top of the barrell it says acier cokerill on 1 barrel on the top and on the other barrel on the top next to it it just says liege belgium and yes there is a stamp on the inside of the barrel next to all the other markings that says LLH what does that mean? Tel: 01707 709372; Modern pistols and revolvers are proved in their last stage of manufacture when complete with action and in firing order. Broqua & Scholberg Some of the links in the first post are inactive and can not be edited. Applied to all guns made but not proofed in Belgium - sent to an other country proof facilities. These marks have all the characteristic appearance of a rectangle, with a small blob at the top rather like a tied up sack of corn. Bettonville - Fontaine Boden Judging by the comments that appeared when I Googled "spesco corporation," your guess is on target. Order this book online and pay it through Using a shotgun shell (a self-contained cartridge with multiple small, sphere-shaped projectiles) instead of a usual bullet is what makes a shotgun a separate kind of a gun. It has punched on one side of barrel 17.2, on the other side punched JC, EL ,pinfire symbol, K and crown on its top, E LG little crown under them in oval.Please help me to get the closest identification for this nice firearm. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. The Liege proof house was established in 1672 and it is the oldest European proof house still in operation. Some older foreign manufactured firearms, such as pistols from Spain and Italy, will list a location, rather than a manufacturer. After years of looking at and trying Greetings Easthampton,I have been researching an old antique pistol that has been in our family for generations.What leads me to your group was the Hits and Misses article posted in 2014; on Deciphering Belgian Proof Marks (my piece has the spelling Belgium). A strong good product that will last for long usage in your Hi Gerard and everyone! Bovy Thodore Joseph to identify antique arms from different parts of the world, we decided 1893 - 1924 1930 - present CH B RAYE 15 Designates 4th or nitro proof; the mark contains the name of the powder in abbreviated form ( Schultze, E.C.) Counet Philippe Any help would be appreciated. I have a vintage double barrel that I have a few questions about. Once tested and successful the weapon was stamped with a seal to Smaller gauges progressively cost more, with 20-gauge guns generally bringing at least twice the price of a 12 gauge. Tullea three spiked crown or mitre above a capital E (as shown below). Courard N. The size of this book of 232 pages The first on the left and the fourth (the one that resembles a candlestick)indicate provisional proof. Quick Facts Thank y'all for your help ahead of time! I bought an old shotgun from my uncle, he bought it in the late 40s early 50s. Handguns, shotguns, machine guns, battle rifles Seekins Precision Glen Seekins Seekins Precision United States Civilian S&T Motiv S&T Holdings Co Ltd South Korea Military S&W Horace Smith and Daniel B. Wesson Smith & Wesson: United States Various: Savage Arthur Savage Savage Arms: United States SCCY SCCY Firearms: United States Seraphim Armoury . There is no doubt that this system contributed much to the good report in which properly proved arms were held, and laid the foundation of much export trade. Thanks Brandon. Hi, thanks for the info and knowledge you provided. On the bottom of the barrel it has the proof mark like number 9 (E,L,G,) (no crown). If I was asked for a guess for a dollar I would say mid 1930's. I can send pictures of it. Bastin Frres Baron Emile Subcategories This category has only the following subcategory. The Great Exhibition of 1851 in London did much to publicize Lefaucheuxs system. Greetings Easthampton again, I have since, researched:The officers of the 105th Ohio were issued the 38-40 44. The other side of the coin is that quality can indeed be there in Belgian guns: The Belgian Browning Superposed were all fine guns, whilefirms like Francotte, Dumoulin, or Lebeau-Courallycould make guns of very high quality indeed. Very helpfull once again. be reproduced, in part or in whole, without the written permission of '. The Belgian gun industry in Liege produced flintlock muskets for their African colonies until the mid-1950s. After this, the firearm is examined to make sure it is still intact and if so, the metal (usually the barrel) is stamped with . The 'z' most likely is an inspector's mark indicating satisfactory quality for this part: in this case, a revolver cylinder--that's my best guess, anyway. Knowledge of commonly used military ammunition assists The 1136 is engraved on the bottom of the barrel. Condition Grading Definitions For Antique Firearms, This website may not Belgian Liege gunmakers (A to C) - Volume 1 By Alain Daubresse This printed and hardbound book, written in English and French by Alain Daubresse, provide an extensive insight about the gunmaking activity in Belgium from its very beginning to the middle of the 20th century. But despite the history the belgian proof stamps are rather straight forward, normally one cant get more information from the proof more than it has been done if one cant find the inspectors mark. Anyone else know? Photos of the flats on the barrels and on the action would help a lot.